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Post by Neko Bazu on Apr 19, 2007 11:02:07 GMT -1
Incidentally are there any non-white people on this board? I can't think of many/any. Strikes me as odd... I've often observed that as well - it just shows that people of certain demographics tend to drift to/not drift to certain areas, I suppose, just as there are very few non-white people at my usual night-club (even though those that do appear are immediately taken as 'one of us' without question if they don't start trouble - like everyone else). That could be part of the issue with the police force too though - which, as I said earlier, is what needs to be challenged, not by giving preferential treatment but instead by sorting whatever keeps them away. Maybe they generally just don't fancy it - what then?
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Post by jh1980 on Apr 19, 2007 11:05:10 GMT -1
Jules, I'm honestly surprised! Granted, you're allowed your opinion and all, but are you essentially saying "Well, I guess this form of discrimination is okay"? I'm basically saying that whatever steps are necessary to level the playing field I will support. And I stand to lose plenty as a white middle class Oxford educated male, but you don't see me moaning on. I don't anticipate there being a huge difference in the quality of service you'd get from (in this case) police officers who'd all been through the same training. I certainly don't see why there'd be a difference because of ethnicity. Hence why is it a problem to try and give the opportunity to be a police officer to people of different ethnicities? Indeed they do. But I would happily see them all locked up - or maybe members of those groups should be sent to war-zones, see how they like it?! The idea is that we're all equal but it has to be more than an idea, opportunities for some groups are and have been restricted and that needs to be reversed. I agree with MLK but I'm sure if he hadn't been murdered he'd agree with the continuing need to support and promote the interests of minority groups. Yes they should and I think your analysis is correct. I'm not sure about that...
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Post by Neko Bazu on Apr 19, 2007 11:05:58 GMT -1
::)i d perfer to have the best person on the job! Its the police ffs why mess? I know they are trying to make ethnic minorities feel welcome on our country but its too far, is there any need to mess with police recruitment! Im sure if it was the other way around it would notbe the same!! Exactly - if I may be so bold as to stereotype for a moment: "There aren't enough white rap artists! Let's get more in, and fast-track them through to a record label to balance the numbers!" Lots of white people listen to rap. Lots of white people buy/download rap music - I have Eminem and TuPac on my PC, my brother has lots of Dr Dre etc. Very few white rappers - but what if we took the above approach, which is essentially the same principle? Uproar - and rightly so!
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Post by Giar on Apr 19, 2007 11:07:39 GMT -1
Nothing like it; the BNP's idealogy invoilves shipping 'ethnic minorities' out. What should happen is rather than British society adapting to reflect immigrants cultures, the immigrants should adapt to our cultures, then there would be less of a problem. Yes they believe in this euphemistic "repatriation" malarkey... but the point is that is because they have the same attitude of putting some ridiculous notion of "Real British" first and fuck everyone else. BME people (many of whom now are 2nd/3rd generation plus) are British too and deserve the same opportunities - but often don't get them. Hence measures to increase their potential to get jobs. As for your discussion of "immigrants cultures" that is a separate point and one which is not relevant to positive discrimination. Incidentally are there any non-white people on this board? I can't think of many/any. Strikes me as odd... sorry but im not saying we deserve all the jobs if im not good enough/skilled enough to do something but a black/asian/chinese/whatever is then fair play give em the job. but to say that because im am a white male who has been paying for the police service and the likes most of my life through tax and what not. where is the fair and equal rites part to that? its not my fault i wasnt born 25/30 years ago when i could have taken full advantage of being a white male in a racist/un-equal enviroment
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Post by jh1980 on Apr 19, 2007 11:08:56 GMT -1
yep it is, and although i dont agree with most of what they say and think they go the wrong way about it, some "parts" i do agree with. I'm not going to fly off the handle at you Stu but that is a pretty shocking thing to say. it's a little more nuanced than that, you know.
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Post by Giar on Apr 19, 2007 11:10:16 GMT -1
Incidentally are there any non-white people on this board? I can't think of many/any. Strikes me as odd... I've often observed that as well - it just shows that people of certain demographics tend to drift to/not drift to certain areas, I suppose, just as there are very few non-white people at my usual night-club (even though those that do appear are immediately taken as 'one of us' without question if they don't start trouble - like everyone else). That could be part of the issue with the police force too though - which, as I said earlier, is what needs to be challenged, not by giving preferential treatment but instead by sorting whatever keeps them away. Maybe they generally just don't fancy it - what then? never really has been a hugely mixed race enviroment at the football though........corse there were a good number of other races there but no matter what club you watch turn round and look at the faces behind you next time your at a match and the vast majority are white. only stands to reason that will carry on to other aspects of football
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Post by weallloveleeds on Apr 19, 2007 11:11:57 GMT -1
Nothing like it; the BNP's idealogy invoilves shipping 'ethnic minorities' out. What should happen is rather than British society adapting to reflect immigrants cultures, the immigrants should adapt to our cultures, then there would be less of a problem. Yes they believe in this euphemistic "repatriation" malarkey... but the point is that is because they have the same attitude of putting some ridiculous notion of "Real British" first and fuck everyone else. BME people (many of whom now are 2nd/3rd generation plus) are British too and deserve the same opportunities - but often don't get them. Hence measures to increase their potential to get jobs. As for your discussion of "immigrants cultures" that is a separate point and one which is not relevant to positive discrimination. Incidentally are there any non-white people on this board? I can't think of many/any. Strikes me as odd... 'Measures to increase their potential jobs' - That should be up to them though, by gaining qualifications, experience etc... like I would have to do. Why should anyone be turned down for a job they may be an ideal candidate for, so that someone less qualified than them who has a different skin colour can have a job? Positive discrimination is bollocks and is exactly what it says- discrimination. You can't discriminate positively, its another PC term thats cropped up, but rather than promoting equality, it crosses the line and discriminates against another (incidentally- larger) group. How am I supposed to know that? It's irrelevant anyway.
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Post by jh1980 on Apr 19, 2007 11:13:04 GMT -1
I've often observed that as well - it just shows that people of certain demographics tend to drift to/not drift to certain areas, I suppose, just as there are very few non-white people at my usual night-club (even though those that do appear are immediately taken as 'one of us' without question if they don't start trouble - like everyone else). Or maybe they feel uncomfortable with the constant harping on about the way "PROPER ENGLISH PEOPLE" aren't getting the jobs, and the moaning about "BOGUS ASYLUM SEEKERS FLOODING THE COUNTRY". Sorry it just fucks me off... Whatever keeps them away is that in many high-profile cases the Police is still a bastion of reaction and low-level racism etcetera. I don't think that's the likeliest explanation...
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Post by weallloveleeds on Apr 19, 2007 11:13:17 GMT -1
isn't meritocracy a form of discrimination? Yes. It discriminates on qualifications, experience and suitability for a position. Rather than on ethnicity or background.
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Post by Neko Bazu on Apr 19, 2007 11:14:02 GMT -1
It's a plaster over a gaping wound, I'm afraid - and it's one of those crappy plasters that come off when you have a shower to boot. If they want to use statistics, they should be used to establish what the problem is, not make it worse by forcing targets. I'm not sure about that... Here's one thing I am sure of: The red-tops will have a field day. We can all see that, and I'm sure I don't need to expand on it. But what then? The mindless morons who read it certainly won't take as mature a view as us on here - in some cases probably even going so far as to assume that every minority member got through by the colour of their skin (let's face it, if a paedophile lynch mob can go after a paediatrician...) What then? Minority police officers getting even more abuse on the streets? Afore-mentioned braindead types refusing to co-operate with minority officers? As sad a reflection of society as it is, I wouldn't be surprised to see a lynch mob mentality develop, especially in areas where there's already a strong racist element (Glasgow, for instance). What if the above does happen, and minority groups become even less inclined to to apply? Do we then adjust the imbalance even more, to reach the targets? Think about cutting down a tree: you take the biggest branches off first, to make it a touch easier, then you go for the trunk - you take the bottom out, then uproot it just to be sure. This approach is more equivalent to just trimming a few of the spindly branches at the top - sure, it looks prettier, but the problematic tree is still there. Good intentions, but the total wrong approach.
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Post by jh1980 on Apr 19, 2007 11:14:48 GMT -1
never really has been a hugely mixed race enviroment at the football though........corse there were a good number of other races there but no matter what club you watch turn round and look at the faces behind you next time your at a match and the vast majority are white. only stands to reason that will carry on to other aspects of football Is that not just because Reading is a fairly "white" area? Or are you talking about all clubs?
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Post by Giar on Apr 19, 2007 11:15:03 GMT -1
yep it is, and although i dont agree with most of what they say and think they go the wrong way about it, some "parts" i do agree with. I'm not going to fly off the handle at you Stu but that is a pretty shocking thing to say. it's a little more nuanced than that, you know. why is that shocking? all im saying is that i think that PARTS of what they say are good points but on the whole i think their just skin head fuckers wearing suits FFS even bloody comuntists had some good points to make. doesnt mean i agree with the way they wanted the world
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Post by HURLOCK on Apr 19, 2007 11:15:05 GMT -1
Bit tired of the occasional moans about this, tbh. White males have had the upper hand in everything for several hundred years now so fair enough, sometimes you have to roll with the punches. Not as if there's 3 million unemployed anymore. so you're saying it's ok
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Post by HURLOCK on Apr 19, 2007 11:16:54 GMT -1
No fuck that, why do we need to level the field when whites are in the majority, hence that dictates that we have the main bulk of the jobs.
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Post by Neko Bazu on Apr 19, 2007 11:16:58 GMT -1
never really has been a hugely mixed race enviroment at the football though........corse there were a good number of other races there but no matter what club you watch turn round and look at the faces behind you next time your at a match and the vast majority are white. only stands to reason that will carry on to other aspects of football I have noticed that - but then, lots of asian people tend to play cricket. Certainly in Luton, footballers tend to be white and cricketers asian, but it's by no means absolute. As I said, maybe people just don't fancy it - and as Jules observed, there's probably more to it than that. So why not find out why instead of going for a quick fix?
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Post by Dr LuKas on Apr 19, 2007 11:17:39 GMT -1
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRI'm angry.
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Post by jh1980 on Apr 19, 2007 11:18:11 GMT -1
Jules tries to argue on here about issues involving race/immigration/social progress
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Post by Giar on Apr 19, 2007 11:18:33 GMT -1
never really has been a hugely mixed race enviroment at the football though........corse there were a good number of other races there but no matter what club you watch turn round and look at the faces behind you next time your at a match and the vast majority are white. only stands to reason that will carry on to other aspects of football Is that not just because Reading is a fairly "white" area? Or are you talking about all clubs? all clubs. we have all sorts at ours and more koreans than i care to count....but your missing my point next time you are at a match or watching it on TV look at the croud and you will see that whites VASTLY outnumber anything else
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Post by jh1980 on Apr 19, 2007 11:19:34 GMT -1
why is that shocking? all im saying is that i think that PARTS of what they say are good points but on the whole i think their just skin head fuckers wearing suits FFS even bloody comuntists had some good points to make. doesnt mean i agree with the way they wanted the world Ok I'm glad you added all that. My over-reaction, as per!
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Post by Dr LuKas on Apr 19, 2007 11:21:10 GMT -1
Jules tries to argue on here about issues involving race/immigration/social progress You don't carry a briefcase ;D
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