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Post by Mrs H on Nov 8, 2007 13:43:44 GMT -1
Not wanting to inflame the debate but there is a very line between immigration and racism - and in my opinion this is reason why politicians seem reluctant to openly debate the question. I don't care who lives in my country - but would expect them to be able to communicate in the language, contribute something towards the country (through work) and abide by the laws of that country. "When in Rome do as the Romans do" springs to mind - so would expect immigrants, whether EU or wherever to respect our country and laws and do their utmost to intergrate into the society to which they moved. And in fairness - if you were to move to somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Iran you'd be expected to uphold their laws and traditions. The Govt. just need to come out and state clearly what their policy is and what the rules are - then hopefully we can all get on with living our lives. Good point(s), well made. It annoys me though sometimes when people refuse to embarce our culture - like that school teacher who refused to remove her hajib/burka when she was teaching - the only reason the school asked her to remove it was because the puils couldn't understand what she was saying! I understand that Billy but you can't expect them to abandon their culture just because they live here. Like I referred to earlier in jest about the ex pats in Spain. Do they integrate into Spanish society??? Not always they create enclaves of Britishness.
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Post by T C on Nov 8, 2007 13:45:09 GMT -1
Mrs H ! are you suggesting that "immigrants" are necessary because they get all the shitty jobs ? is that not a tad racist ? If that's what you think then it wasn't the intention. The truth is that the service industry for years has been using migrant workers. The hotel industry would have collapsed years ago if immigration had been restricted. We only use migrant workers because they will do the jobs we don't like for a pittance of the wages ! I'm not saying that's morally right but it is a fact !
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Post by HURLOCK on Nov 8, 2007 13:47:17 GMT -1
I don't care, I still pray that he beats Boris, for the sake of the poor, the marginalised, those who use public transport and those who need services extended not cut. And that's not even a soundbite. Cheap wind-up, I know you're interested in self-wealth but then speaking of living in the past you are so in hock to the 1980s it's almost comical mate! How can you say that really, in one breath you almost jump down my throat for saying the BNP brings some sort of status quo and in the next you say it's acceptable for a member of parliment to be racist. Try and be consistant! Not a wind up, you've just got your head up your arse mate where this is concerned. Your as working class as I am. About time you dealt with that.
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Post by Billy on Nov 8, 2007 13:47:42 GMT -1
Good point(s), well made. It annoys me though sometimes when people refuse to embarce our culture - like that school teacher who refused to remove her hajib/burka when she was teaching - the only reason the school asked her to remove it was because the puils couldn't understand what she was saying! I understand that Billy but you can't expect them to abandon their culture just because they live here. Like I referred to earlier in jest about the ex pats in Spain. Do they integrate into Spanish society??? Not always they create enclaves of Britishness. No, I don't expect them to abandon it - I just thought that the school's request was a prefectly fair one - given that her dress was affecting their ability to learn. I realise that a lot of ex pats are turning parts of Iberia into "little England's" but in the middle east you are not allowed to display anything that is symbolic of any other religion than Islam. My friend used to live in Saudi Arabia - she is Catholic, and when they arrived her dad has his crucifix necklace confiscated and he never got it back.
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Post by Mrs H on Nov 8, 2007 13:49:04 GMT -1
If that's what you think then it wasn't the intention. The truth is that the service industry for years has been using migrant workers. The hotel industry would have collapsed years ago if immigration had been restricted. We only use migrant workers because they will do the jobs we don't like for a pittance of the wages ! I'm not saying that's morally right but it is a fact ! I think that has been my point all along but you claimed it was racist! The fact is that even the British under educated think it's beneath them to do these jobs because life is made too easy for them to sit on their fat backsides. If someone wants to come over here, start a new life for themselves and are willing to work are we saying that these are less deserving to be in this country than the 'perpetual benefit seekers'?
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Post by T C on Nov 8, 2007 13:51:29 GMT -1
I understand that Billy but you can't expect them to abandon their culture just because they live here. Like I referred to earlier in jest about the ex pats in Spain. Do they integrate into Spanish society??? Not always they create enclaves of Britishness. No, I don't expect them to abandon it - I just thought that the school's request was a prefectly fair one - given that her dress was affecting their ability to learn. I realise that a lot of ex pats are turning parts of Iberia into "little England's" but in the middle east you are not allowed to display anything that is symbolic of any other religion than Islam. My friend used to live in Saudi Arabia - she is Catholic, and when they arrived her dad has his crucifix necklace confiscated and he never got it back. Although alcohol is forbidden there,Saudi Arabia is full of cellar bars in ex pat areas.. the saudis turn a blind eye. We are not exactly respecting them there are we ?
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Post by Mrs H on Nov 8, 2007 13:52:44 GMT -1
I understand that Billy but you can't expect them to abandon their culture just because they live here. Like I referred to earlier in jest about the ex pats in Spain. Do they integrate into Spanish society??? Not always they create enclaves of Britishness. No, I don't expect them to abandon it - I just thought that the school's request was a prefectly fair one - given that her dress was affecting their ability to learn. I realise that a lot of ex pats are turning parts of Iberia into "little England's" but in the middle east you are not allowed to display anything that is symbolic of any other religion than Islam. My friend used to live in Saudi Arabia - she is Catholic, and when they arrived her dad has his crucifix necklace confiscated and he never got it back. But you can have it both ways Billy. You're saying how it was wrong for friends dad to be treated like that but it ok for us to force that woman and tell her how to dress? I'm not saying I disagree with the outcome of that case because it was affecting her teaching but playing devil's advocate it's the same situation.
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Post by Billy on Nov 8, 2007 13:52:51 GMT -1
No, I don't expect them to abandon it - I just thought that the school's request was a prefectly fair one - given that her dress was affecting their ability to learn. I realise that a lot of ex pats are turning parts of Iberia into "little England's" but in the middle east you are not allowed to display anything that is symbolic of any other religion than Islam. My friend used to live in Saudi Arabia - she is Catholic, and when they arrived her dad has his crucifix necklace confiscated and he never got it back. Although alcohol is forbidden there,Saudi Arabia is full of cellar bars in ex pat areas.. the saudis turn a blind eye. We are not exactly respecting them there are we ? True - although I happen to know that some Saudis have been known to visit these and enjoy a drink or two themselves...
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Post by thales on Nov 8, 2007 13:53:36 GMT -1
Not wanting to inflame the debate but there is a very line between immigration and racism - and in my opinion this is reason why politicians seem reluctant to openly debate the question. I don't care who lives in my country - but would expect them to be able to communicate in the language, contribute something towards the country (through work) and abide by the laws of that country. "When in Rome do as the Romans do" springs to mind - so would expect immigrants, whether EU or wherever to respect our country and laws and do their utmost to intergrate into the society to which they moved. And in fairness - if you were to move to somewhere like Saudi Arabia or Iran you'd be expected to uphold their laws and traditions. The Govt. just need to come out and state clearly what their policy is and what the rules are - then hopefully we can all get on with living our lives. Spoken with the maturity of an adult. Fully agree. Only let 'em in if they are prepared to work and contribute to their chosen country. After all how many european countries would allow us in to sponge off the state ? we do actually
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Post by T C on Nov 8, 2007 13:54:21 GMT -1
We only use migrant workers because they will do the jobs we don't like for a pittance of the wages ! I'm not saying that's morally right but it is a fact ! I think that has been my point all along but you claimed it was racist! The fact is that even the British under educated think it's beneath them to do these jobs because life is made too easy for them to sit on their fat backsides. If someone wants to come over here, start a new life for themselves and are willing to work are we saying that these are less deserving to be in this country than the 'perpetual benefit seekers'? Please Mrs H let's not fall out ! The point I wanted to make which Roaster mentioned was let them in if they are prepared to work and be self supporting but not those who just want to sponge... and I didn't think for one minute that you were Racist !
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Post by jh1980 on Nov 8, 2007 13:54:49 GMT -1
How can you say that really, in one breath you almost jump down my throat for saying the BNP brings some sort of status quo and in the next you say it's acceptable for a member of parliment to be racist. Try and be consistant! Not a wind up, you've just got your head up your arse mate where this is concerned. Your as working class as I am. About time you dealt with that. I'm saying I don't care about Ken making gaffes. Not that it's okay for him to be racist. And yes, I'd rather the BNP weren't mentioned in even vaguely positive tones, because every single one of them (in my opinion) is a complete scumbag! Who's working class? I don't have a class issue, why are you mentioning that?! I just know whose interests deserve to be promoted, and whose interests are already promoted more than enough... and base my postion upon that!
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Post by Billy on Nov 8, 2007 13:56:22 GMT -1
No, I don't expect them to abandon it - I just thought that the school's request was a prefectly fair one - given that her dress was affecting their ability to learn. I realise that a lot of ex pats are turning parts of Iberia into "little England's" but in the middle east you are not allowed to display anything that is symbolic of any other religion than Islam. My friend used to live in Saudi Arabia - she is Catholic, and when they arrived her dad has his crucifix necklace confiscated and he never got it back. But you can have it both ways Billy. You're saying how it was wrong for friends dad to be treated like that but it ok for us to force that woman and tell her how to dress? I'm not saying I disagree with the outcome of that case because it was affecting her teaching but playing devil's advocate it's the same situation. She should be allowed to wear what she likes outside of the school, I have no issue with that. If it is ok for them to force him to remove his corss, surely it is ok for us to force people to abandon a piece of clothing that affects childrens' ability to learn?
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Post by Mrs H on Nov 8, 2007 13:56:48 GMT -1
I think that has been my point all along but you claimed it was racist! The fact is that even the British under educated think it's beneath them to do these jobs because life is made too easy for them to sit on their fat backsides. If someone wants to come over here, start a new life for themselves and are willing to work are we saying that these are less deserving to be in this country than the 'perpetual benefit seekers'? Please Mrs H let's not fall out ! The point I wanted to make which Roaster mentioned was let them in if they are prepared to work and be self supporting but not those who just want to sponge... and I didn't think for one minute that you were Racist ! Nothing wrong with healthy debate The problem you have is how do you decide before you allow someone into the country whether they are going to be willing to work? Unless they have a pre designated job, in the way that the Australian immigration system works.
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Post by T C on Nov 8, 2007 14:00:08 GMT -1
Please Mrs H let's not fall out ! The point I wanted to make which Roaster mentioned was let them in if they are prepared to work and be self supporting but not those who just want to sponge... and I didn't think for one minute that you were Racist ! Nothing wrong with healthy debate The problem you have is how do you decide before you allow someone into the country whether they are going to be willing to work? Unless they have a pre designated job, in the way that the Australian immigration system works. Simple... You adopt the Australian system or send an employment assessor to their house first !
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Post by Mrs H on Nov 8, 2007 14:00:35 GMT -1
But you can have it both ways Billy. You're saying how it was wrong for friends dad to be treated like that but it ok for us to force that woman and tell her how to dress? I'm not saying I disagree with the outcome of that case because it was affecting her teaching but playing devil's advocate it's the same situation. She should be allowed to wear what she likes outside of the school, I have no issue with that. If it is ok for them to force him to remove his corss, surely it is ok for us to force people to abandon a piece of clothing that affects childrens' ability to learn? And I just said that I didn't disagree with the outcome of that case Billy but surely 2 wrongs don't make a right?
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Post by Mrs H on Nov 8, 2007 14:03:18 GMT -1
Nothing wrong with healthy debate The problem you have is how do you decide before you allow someone into the country whether they are going to be willing to work? Unless they have a pre designated job, in the way that the Australian immigration system works. Simple... You adopt the Australian system or send an employment assessor to their house first ! Maybe we should send employment assessors round a few council estates as well!!!
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Post by Billy on Nov 8, 2007 14:03:45 GMT -1
She should be allowed to wear what she likes outside of the school, I have no issue with that. If it is ok for them to force him to remove his corss, surely it is ok for us to force people to abandon a piece of clothing that affects childrens' ability to learn? And I just said that I didn't disagree with the outcome of that case Billy but surely 2 wrongs don't make a right? Well there have to be some standards somewhere - in an ideal situation both parties would be allowed to wear what they liked, but that unfortunately just isn't the case.
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Post by HURLOCK on Nov 8, 2007 14:04:16 GMT -1
I'm saying I don't care about Ken making gaffes. Not that it's okay for him to be racist. And yes, I'd rather the BNP weren't mentioned in even vaguely positive tones, because every single one of them (in my opinion) is a complete scumbag! ) Do you not understand that the BNP are exploiting a situation created by our current government, praying on ignorance and the readers of the red tops.
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Post by T C on Nov 8, 2007 14:05:03 GMT -1
Simple... You adopt the Australian system or send an employment assessor to their house first ! Maybe we should send employment assessors round a few council estates as well!!! Shit Mrs H ! you beat me to it... was gonna follow up with that myself !
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Post by Mrs H on Nov 8, 2007 14:06:45 GMT -1
Maybe we should send employment assessors round a few council estates as well!!! Shit Mrs H ! you beat me to it... was gonna follow up with that myself ! What do you think about the new government plan to fine those who don't stay on to further education or vocational courses or don't get a job after school?
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