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Post by jh1980 on Sept 10, 2007 15:00:36 GMT -1
Its a good job he's not Jewish then isn't it. We wouldn't want you two sensitive people to fall out. Right night all LOL who's the other sensitive person?! Point taken though lol... Traaa honey-pie!
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Post by C@V on Sept 10, 2007 15:01:03 GMT -1
Bye gang I'm off! Leave some interesting stuff for me to read upon my return.
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caligula
League 2 Player
[M0:44]
Posts: 107
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Post by caligula on Sept 10, 2007 15:02:41 GMT -1
no evidence of slavery? Hmm, there are stone tablets at the British Museum that state quite clearly that the "Habirou" who were once your slaves have now risen against us and we ask for rienforcements to rise up against them" habirou is connected with the Hebrews. You also have to bear in Mind that the egyptians often enslaved any nation they conquered, there are clear records that indicate this. there are also clear records that they conquered Israel, and it would therefore be logical to point out they they would then enslave as many of the conquered individuals as they could. it would be ridiculous to suggest that they did not enslave the conquered population Of Israel. In ancient Egypt, textual references to slaves are indistinct. From word usage alone, it is difficult to ascertain whether one was a slave or a servant. For example, a priest could be read as a god's slave, but by our definition and understanding of slavery he is not. In reading Egyptian texts, therefore, context is the only criteria for determining such a status, and even then, it can be difficult, because there were different levels of servitude. I do not consider my fore fathers as being enslaved by Egypt! OK, I am not arguing from a religious point of view. I am arguing from a secular view. You address one point of my argument but not the practical side. And the fact is that conquered people were used as slaves. That is a fact.It is also a fact that the egyptians conquered Israel. Maybe they turned it into a propoganda tool to bond a nation, i tend to rule out the "Divine intervention" side of things!
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Post by Neko Bazu on Sept 10, 2007 15:04:08 GMT -1
You also have to bear in Mind that the egyptians often enslaved any nation they conquered, there are clear records that indicate this. You'll have to point me to those sometime; I find the suggestion laughable. They may have enslaved prisoners of war, but they certainly didn't enslave the general populace - quite the contrary; they were generally treated well and even allowed to keep their own gods. Keeping the people happy is a very handy means for preventing rebellion, and the Pharaohs knew it! It just meant the people paid taxes to a different ruler, which, for your average farmer meant absolutely sod-all difference as long as there wasn't a sudden hike. Edit: To give you an example of the 'slavery' issues: Shaffik Allam, 2001; 'Slaves' in The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient EgyptDr.Akosua Perbi, 2001; Slavery and the slave trade in pre-colonial Africa'Slavery' is also something commonly mistaken in the ushebti people were buried with, who were supposed to be their slaves/workers in the afterlife.
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Post by weallloveleeds on Sept 10, 2007 15:09:46 GMT -1
I thought it was Friday
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caligula
League 2 Player
[M0:44]
Posts: 107
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Post by caligula on Sept 11, 2007 6:28:41 GMT -1
Hi Neko, if I may be allowed to include contempary quotes in regards to slavery in Egypt that clearly show slaves were not just prisoners of war: While there had been slaves in Egypt since the beginning of its history, their numbers greatly increased during the New Kingdom, when the pharaohs were committed to a policy of foreign involvement and conquests in Nubia, Canaan and Syria brought in many prisoners of war, seqer-ankh, who were enslaved, at times branded with the sign ki :
"I gave to them captains of archers, and chief men of the tribes, branded and made into slaves, impressed with my name; their wives and their children were made likewise. Papyrus Harris (Here the words Children and Wives give clear indication of non-combatants being taken and used as slaves.Also it is interesting to note that in this case there is no debate about the word "Slave" as these people were branded!)
James Henry Breasted Ancient Records of Egypt, Part IV, § 405 "and often given to deserving servants of the crown: Then Avaris was despoiled, and I brought spoil from there: one man, three women; total, four persons. His majesty gave them to me as slaves. Then Sharuhen was besieged for three years. His majesty despoiled it and I brought spoil from it: two women and a hand. " (Again, women, being non-combatants are taken and given as slaves. A clear indication that non-combatants were used as slaves.) From the autobiography of Ahmose, son of Ebana 18th dynasty
You have to bear in mind that it was common practice that slaves were taken from a subjugated population. Wether people were taken and used as slaves in the invaders native country or used to produce wheat or goods in their own country. A good modern example of this being the subjugation of the Sar area after WW1 where the native German population were used to produce materials as "Reparations" after WW1. Do not get me wrong on this, I am not saying the bible is correct, nor that the Pyramids were built by slaves. I am saying that the egyptians used slaves, and it is quite plausible that the Hebrews were used as slaves, be they transported back to Egypt or used in their homeland.
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ianevansleg
Non League Player (someone crap, like Boston)
[M0:1]
Posts: 64
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Post by ianevansleg on Sept 11, 2007 7:07:33 GMT -1
Hi Neko, if I may be allowed to include contempary quotes in regards to slavery in Egypt that clearly show slaves were not just prisoners of war: While there had been slaves in Egypt since the beginning of its history, their numbers greatly increased during the New Kingdom, when the pharaohs were committed to a policy of foreign involvement and conquests in Nubia, Canaan and Syria brought in many prisoners of war, seqer-ankh, who were enslaved, at times branded with the sign ki : "I gave to them captains of archers, and chief men of the tribes, branded and made into slaves, impressed with my name; their wives and their children were made likewise. Papyrus Harris (Here the words Children and Wives give clear indication of non-combatants being taken and used as slaves.Also it is interesting to note that in this case there is no debate about the word "Slave" as these people were branded!) James Henry Breasted Ancient Records of Egypt, Part IV, § 405 "and often given to deserving servants of the crown: Then Avaris was despoiled, and I brought spoil from there: one man, three women; total, four persons. His majesty gave them to me as slaves. Then Sharuhen was besieged for three years. His majesty despoiled it and I brought spoil from it: two women and a hand. " (Again, women, being non-combatants are taken and given as slaves. A clear indication that non-combatants were used as slaves.) From the autobiography of Ahmose, son of Ebana 18th dynasty You have to bear in mind that it was common practice that slaves were taken from a subjugated population. Wether people were taken and used as slaves in the invaders native country or used to produce wheat or goods in their own country. A good modern example of this being the subjugation of the Sar area after WW1 where the native German population were used to produce materials as "Reparations" after WW1. Do not get me wrong on this, I am not saying the bible is correct, nor that the Pyramids were built by slaves. I am saying that the egyptians used slaves, and it is quite plausible that the Hebrews were used as slaves, be they transported back to Egypt or used in their homeland. Bloody hell all this religous stuff is beyond this boys comprehension i am very impressed But then i am from South-East London and do not support Millwall
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caligula
League 2 Player
[M0:44]
Posts: 107
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Post by caligula on Sept 11, 2007 7:11:20 GMT -1
Ooh no, this is not Religion, this is more classical Histroy, and a good debate it is too!
It is amazing what us "Thugs from Millwall" can discuss. ;D
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Post by Neko Bazu on Sept 11, 2007 7:12:34 GMT -1
The exact description of the term 'slave' is always up for debate throughout ancient Egyptian history, purely because of the way the term originated (taken from the word for 'body') and questions over the way the slaves were actually 'employed'. Since they're talking, in effect, about the sale of 'bodies', it can be speculated (which is all that can be done as regards slavery in AE) that it was a similar system to footballers today - you buy the rights to employ them, then pay them (albeit a far lesser wage, I'm sure ). Maybe in the New Kingdom, the system was harsher, but I again attest that the slaves certainly weren't the same as witnessed in ancient Rome, for instance. If the Kemetic language were still spoken today, it'd be one thing, but given that it's firstly a dead language and secondly much less well-documented than, say, Latin, all translations - while able to provide a broad meaning - should not be taken as literal, and certainly not in a modern or even western context. Just look at Pharaohs 'marrying' their sisters - it was in no means a marriage as we think of it. I won't deny that "slaves" existed in Egypt, but the exact context of the word is my point of debate - and, to go back to the initial question raised, I certainly doubt that "slavery" was as rife and brutal as the old testament would have you believe! (Especially bearing in mind that, like many documents referring to the past, it would have been written with the author's own interests pressed forward)
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Post by C@V on Sept 11, 2007 7:16:08 GMT -1
Hi Neko, if I may be allowed to include contempary quotes in regards to slavery in Egypt that clearly show slaves were not just prisoners of war: While there had been slaves in Egypt since the beginning of its history, their numbers greatly increased during the New Kingdom, when the pharaohs were committed to a policy of foreign involvement and conquests in Nubia, Canaan and Syria brought in many prisoners of war, seqer-ankh, who were enslaved, at times branded with the sign ki : "I gave to them captains of archers, and chief men of the tribes, branded and made into slaves, impressed with my name; their wives and their children were made likewise. Papyrus Harris (Here the words Children and Wives give clear indication of non-combatants being taken and used as slaves.Also it is interesting to note that in this case there is no debate about the word "Slave" as these people were branded!) James Henry Breasted Ancient Records of Egypt, Part IV, § 405 "and often given to deserving servants of the crown: Then Avaris was despoiled, and I brought spoil from there: one man, three women; total, four persons. His majesty gave them to me as slaves. Then Sharuhen was besieged for three years. His majesty despoiled it and I brought spoil from it: two women and a hand. " (Again, women, being non-combatants are taken and given as slaves. A clear indication that non-combatants were used as slaves.) From the autobiography of Ahmose, son of Ebana 18th dynasty You have to bear in mind that it was common practice that slaves were taken from a subjugated population. Wether people were taken and used as slaves in the invaders native country or used to produce wheat or goods in their own country. A good modern example of this being the subjugation of the Sar area after WW1 where the native German population were used to produce materials as "Reparations" after WW1. Do not get me wrong on this, I am not saying the bible is correct, nor that the Pyramids were built by slaves. I am saying that the egyptians used slaves, and it is quite plausible that the Hebrews were used as slaves, be they transported back to Egypt or used in their homeland. You state that it was plausible that Hebrews were used as slaves! Well in history many things can be looked upon as plausible. The fact remains that some historians support your claim and others refute it. History is written by the winners so everything you read has to be regarded in that context. You know as well as I do that our media today only report what the governments actually allow. Anything really sensitive is kept from us or censored to the point of missing the point!
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caligula
League 2 Player
[M0:44]
Posts: 107
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Post by caligula on Sept 11, 2007 7:20:51 GMT -1
CAV, I agree, let us do away with any contempary quotes, after all, what do people living at the time know?
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Post by C@V on Sept 11, 2007 7:29:25 GMT -1
CAV, I agree, let us do away with any contempary quotes, after all, what do people living at the time know? Well they may be living at the time.............doesn't mean they are telling the truth. Or maybe they think they are but are heavily biased. These points in history you're talking about occurred thousands of years ago, documents have been lost, rewritten, adapted etc etc. New leaders and governments adapt history all the time for self gain and propaganda, so truth is very hard to collaborate.
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Post by jh1980 on Sept 11, 2007 7:31:27 GMT -1
ciekawe! *strokes beard*
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Post by C@V on Sept 11, 2007 7:35:22 GMT -1
Morning Mr Man. I'm actually growing a beard at the moment..........I look splendid!
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Post by Mrs H on Sept 11, 2007 7:36:17 GMT -1
Morning Mr Man. I'm actually growing a beard at the moment..........I look splendid! Hobo style or George Michael style?
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Post by jh1980 on Sept 11, 2007 7:37:58 GMT -1
Morning Mr Man. I'm actually growing a beard at the moment..........I look splendid! LOL which Mr Man?! *Careful with your answer!* Heh, are you a swarthy sort of chap... as long as it grows faster than Shippers' beard I suppose. Is it so that Junior can sit on your knee and tug on it when he/she arrives?!
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Post by C@V on Sept 11, 2007 7:38:13 GMT -1
Morning Mr Man. I'm actually growing a beard at the moment..........I look splendid! Hobo style or George Michael style? Like Jebus!
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caligula
League 2 Player
[M0:44]
Posts: 107
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Post by caligula on Sept 11, 2007 7:40:28 GMT -1
Neko, as I have said earlier, I do not mean to support the Bible story in anyway. I am saying that the Hebrew people were used as slaves. I use slaves in the term of Subjugation, when somebody is branded it does not mean that they were employed through an agency, though in todays climate you begin to wonder. The Bible says that the hebrews were used as slaves, the egyptians say they used slaves from varying countires. You argue about the definaition of the word slave or indeed the translation of the word slave. though you conceed that the word could be translated either way. The fact remains that the egyptians captured people, in war of conquests made them work and Branded them. Ho Hum
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Post by Mrs H on Sept 11, 2007 7:41:02 GMT -1
Hobo style or George Michael style? Like Jebus! Not God?
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Post by C@V on Sept 11, 2007 7:41:35 GMT -1
Morning Mr Man. I'm actually growing a beard at the moment..........I look splendid! LOL which Mr Man?! *Careful with your answer!* Heh, are you a swarthy sort of chap... as long as it grows faster than Shippers' beard I suppose. Is it so that Junior can sit on your knee and tug on it when he/she arrives?! Here are the Millwall Mr Men! You're more of....................
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