Church condemns lesbian IVF use

[Neko Bazu]

Well they would, wouldn't they?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7101153.stm

The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales has condemned plans to make it easier for lesbian couples to use IVF to become parents.

In a Times letter, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor said the plans were "profoundly wrong" and undermined "the place of the father in a child's life".

But campaign group Stonewall said the move was a "logical and timely step".

The measures are contained in the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill, being debated in the Lords later.

The bill would remove the current requirement on IVF clinics to be sure that a father is involved in the upbringing of any child created after he donates sperm.

MPs have previously called for an end to the right of fertility clinics to refuse treatment to single women and lesbians.

Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor wrote: "The bill proposes to remove the need for IVF providers to take into account the child's need for a father when considering an IVF application, and to confer legal parenthood on people who have no biological relationship to a child born as a result of IVF.

"This radically undermines the place of the father in a child's life, and makes the natural rights of the child subordinate to the desires of the couple.

"It is profoundly wrong."

But Ruth Hunt, of gay rights campaign group Stonewall, said the plans did not involve "denigrating the principle of fatherhood".

"This is a very logical and timely step to ensure that a child can have two parents from the moment of conception and that is safeguarded throughout their upbringing," she said.

Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor has called on the government to allow Labour members in both houses to have a free vote on the issue - as opposition members already do.

[HURLOCK]

Whilst I do not have any issues with lesbians and gays, they have their path and they know that they can't have children within the constraints of their relationship.

I know that may sound draconian, but they can't reproduce so why should they want children. Nature does not permit it, so they should respect natures way

[jh1980]

hurlock said:

Whilst I do not have any issues with lesbians and gays, they have their path and they know that they can't have children within the constraints of their relationship.

I know that may sound draconian, but they can't reproduce so why should they want children. Nature does not permit it, so they should respect natures way

I'm not going to have a rant at you, I think that's truly what you believe.

However yes it is draconian, what does sexual preference have to do with whether you a) want a family b) "should" have a family or c) are able to raise a family?

Just think about that!

[Neko Bazu]

jh1980 said:

hurlock said:

Whilst I do not have any issues with lesbians and gays, they have their path and they know that they can't have children within the constraints of their relationship.

I know that may sound draconian, but they can't reproduce so why should they want children. Nature does not permit it, so they should respect natures way

I'm not going to have a rant at you, I think that's truly what you believe.

However yes it is draconian, what does sexual preference have to do with whether you a) want a family b) "should" have a family or c) are able to raise a family?

Just think about that!

For once, Jules, I'm agreeing with you and not Hurls!

At the end of the day, if they can do the job as a parent then I say well done to them - and anyone who can't do the job shouldn't be a parent, regardless of sexual orientation!

[jh1980]

neko said:

For once, Jules, I'm agreeing with you and not Hurls!

At the end of the day, if they can do the job as a parent then I say well done to them - and anyone who can't do the job shouldn't be a parent, regardless of sexual orientation!

You should try it more often Neko, it's not a bad habit!

Exactly.

[PureOldGold]

neko said:

jh1980 said:

I'm not going to have a rant at you, I think that's truly what you believe.

However yes it is draconian, what does sexual preference have to do with whether you a) want a family b) "should" have a family or c) are able to raise a family?

Just think about that!

For once, Jules, I'm agreeing with you and not Hurls!

At the end of the day, if they can do the job as a parent then I say well done to them - and anyone who can't do the job shouldn't be a parent, regardless of sexual orientation!

well i agree with hurlock, the affects on the child can be very damaging growing up with parents of the same sex, if you can't reproduce you can't have children, simple! i have nothing against gays or lesbians though.

[Arnold]

I having nothing against lesbians. Apart from the butch ones ;D

[Neko Bazu]

pureoldgold said:

if you can't reproduce you can't have children, simple!

I pity anyone born infertile if you ever become a politician...

[HURLOCK]

arniepie said:

I having nothing against lesbians. Apart from the butch ones ;D

butch ones are scarey! Why do they have to be like men, it's like they're trying to reprocate the role!

[jh1980]

pureoldgold said:

well i agree with hurlock, the affects on the child can be very damaging growing up with parents of the same sex, if you can't reproduce you can't have children, simple! i have nothing against gays or lesbians though.

But who are you to make that judgement?

I'm a bit annoyed because I know some gay people who'd make very good parents, and who want a family - hence this debate becomes personal in my mind.

I also know plenty of shite parents who just because they produced children "naturally" have a ridiculous privileged position!

[Neko Bazu]

jh1980 said:

pureoldgold said:

well i agree with hurlock, the affects on the child can be very damaging growing up with parents of the same sex, if you can't reproduce you can't have children, simple! i have nothing against gays or lesbians though.

But who are you to make that judgement?

I'm a bit annoyed because I know some gay people who'd make very good parents, and who want a family - hence this debate becomes personal in my mind.

I also know plenty of shite parents who just because they produced children "naturally" have a ridiculous privileged position!

Ditto on both counts.

At the end of the day, if gay parents can provide a child with a safe, loving home, and raise it well and provide for it, I see no problem. Better them than some c*nt who'll slap the child about the house or whatever

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm saying better a gay parent than an abusive one - I'm not implying all straight couples are abusive.

[Arnold]

hurlock said:

arniepie said:

I having nothing against lesbians. Apart from the butch ones ;D

butch ones are scarey! Why do they have to be like men, it's like they're trying to reprocate the role!

It is a bit strange. I prefer minge but I want you to look like a man?

[HURLOCK]

jh1980 said:

neko said:

For once, Jules, I'm agreeing with you and not Hurls!

At the end of the day, if they can do the job as a parent then I say well done to them - and anyone who can't do the job shouldn't be a parent, regardless of sexual orientation!

You should try it more often Neko, it's not a bad habit!

Exactly.

OK, I just think that children need the balance of two parents. Now I accept that this is in an ideal family environment.

Surely though, they have made the choice or maybe they haven't their born with their sexual persuasion and have to live with what nature dictates.

You could argue that the parents would influence the child in the wrong way.

Marc Almond is the classic example, never knew his father and brought up by women. And I'm sorry he's not a balanced man!

[HURLOCK]

arniepie said:

It is a bit strange. I prefer minge but I want you to look like a man?

bit like veggies woho eat meat substitutes!

[Arnold]

hurlock said:

arniepie said:

It is a bit strange. I prefer minge but I want you to look like a man?

bit like veggies woho eat meat substitutes!

Agreed with that Hurls my mate is a veggie and eats bloody Linda McCartney sausages and bacon all the time. Keeps cooking me stuff with Quorn and saying 'you cant tell the difference can you'?

Fuck off if you are making a stand against meat production do it properly

[jh1980]

hurlock said:

OK, I just think that children need the balance of two parents. Now I accept that this is in an ideal family environment.

Surely though, they have made the choice or maybe they haven't their born with their sexual persuasion and have to live with what nature dictates.

You could argue that the parents would influence the child in the wrong way.

Marc Almond is the classic example, never knew his father and brought up by women. And I'm sorry he's not a balanced man!

I understand Hurls. Though you're basically saying the majority of the current and next generation will have grown up in a "non-ideal" environment.

People don't choose their sexuality, a lot of people struggle - some for years - to understand and come to terms with how they feel.

You could argue that, but any parents may influence their children, not necessarily in the right way, and there are bigger problems than people being "influenced to be gay" - if that's what you're meaning, and I think it is!

Marc Almond isn't in an institution though is he? He's a successful artist, probably still has many fans. Lots of people would happily take his lifestyle rather than their own...!

[Arnold]

Like drinking pints of Jizz with your dinner Jules? ;D

[HURLOCK]

arniepie said:

Agreed with that Hurls my mate is a veggie and eats bloody Linda McCartney sausages and bacon all the time. Keeps cooking me stuff with Quorn and saying 'you cant tell the difference can you'?

Fuck off if you are making a stand against meat production do it properly

Can tell you a really funny story about those linda m things, used to know a student from Hungary and he bought some of them. I asked what the fuck are you eating that for? his respose was:

I bought it because it says the meats 'Free' I wet myself with laughter, as this was the guy who ate boars and the like at home!

Had quorn a few times, and its just gunk! As you say - if you want to eat veg - fair play but do it properly.

[C@V]

As long as the parents love the child it should not matter who those parents are. In an ideal world the heterosexual family is better for the child simply because they will suffer less at the hands of prejudice.

[HURLOCK]

jh1980 said:

I understand Hurls. Though you're basically saying the majority of the current and next generation will have grown up in a "non-ideal" environment.

People don't choose their sexuality, a lot of people struggle - some for years - to understand and come to terms with how they feel.

You could argue that, but any parents may influence their children, not necessarily in the right way, and there are bigger problems than people being "influenced to be gay" - if that's what you're meaning, and I think it is!

Marc Almond isn't in an institution though is he? He's a successful artist, probably still has many fans. Lots of people would happily take his lifestyle rather than their own...!

OK, whilst staying in topic are there any test cases of same sex families. And have the child gone on to be gay?