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Post by GeoFox on Apr 24, 2008 20:25:12 GMT -1
I am torn on this too. On the one hand, I agree with what you were saying about it effectively being a pay cut and with these being tough times on people economically, it could hit hard. I think most people in teaching, and the public sector generally do not enter it for the money. Levels of pay across it, esp in teaching are fairly low, so below inflation rises are never good. On the other hand, its about the same level, if not marginally higher than the rest of the public sector - so very comparable to the likes of police, civil service etc and given the state of the economy I know the government have to make decisions which keep the economy fairly strong, and inflation reasonably low which will keep people better off in real terms. Whether this amount of money would have any effect, or is just a drop in the ocean, I don't know enough about economics to say. Of course, public sector workers in general have good pension systems, good holiday entitlement (esp teachers) and decent job security, so are maybe less vulnerable to economic insecurities in some senses. I did see, on the news last night, that teachers pay had risen over 9% in real terms in 1997, presumably some big above inflation ones in there. Maybe it all evens itself out in the end, but I know people will judge their pay in relation to what they had the year before. My primary concern would be for the kids though, along the lines of what Neko said. I just don't know. I would hope it is resolved and wouldn't come to any more strike days though, esp at this stressful time of year for students. I'm afraid that I would be amazed if there are not more strikes. I am also no economist, but the evidence presented before us by our Union claims that there is no evidence that public sector wage increases affect inflation. I just do not know enough to know whether that is true or not. Again, returning to my original point, despite the hours I do I know that this is replicated by many. I know that we are well provided for in terms of holidays (whilst I would claim that there are few jobs where they are so desperately required by the time they come around!) and for where I live I am well paid. However, the issue is not about people like me but for people like yourself about to leave University with the possibility of entering teaching. With a decline in standards we cannot expect the best applicants and when the current situation is that 50% of new teachers leave the profession again within the first three years then something is seriously wrong. The welfare of the students concerns me too - and allowing such a decline will affect them far more than it will affect "the economy" and in the long term the social and economic effects of weaker schools will be far reaching. I think you have hit the most important point on the head there, with regards to future generations and the future direction of the profession. It is something particularly true to teaching. I think pay is one aspect of this - but its never been great, its not much better now, if at all and this pay deal is neither here nor there in the long run of things. Big pay in city jobs will sway some people but the people who go into teaching are not the ones in there for the money, mostly. It has to be good enough to live well in the 21st century though, and be competitive - I guess that is the debate. Things like increased work pressure, strict guidelines and curriculumisation (if thats a word) hasn't helped attract the best people too though. I'm sure its still a very rewarding job but, for better or worse, its very oriented towards getting students through exams now.
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Post by PASTIE on Apr 24, 2008 20:44:10 GMT -1
Respect and admiring you for these posts Pastie but it gets my goat when Unions hold the Country to ransom with their demands. I was in the RAF for 23 years and we did what we did out of sense of duty. Strike ? no way and up until Thatcher we were poorly paid i thought being a teacher was a Vocation ... and people namely our future leaders could potentially suffer for this. Yeah sometimes we have to think of ourselves but there's a time and a place but I guess that's why you've chosen now, to maximise impact Teaching is of course a vocation, but like any vocation it has to be sustainable. I am 36 years old. Potentially I could be sitting up slowly and distractedly working my way through reports like this for another 29 years (longer if they get their way over teachers pensions). Frankly, much as I enjoy the classroom work and the working with young people that was the draw in the first place, I also lost stupid amounts of time to tasks which are largely meaningless to anybody and which have no interest to me at all. I liek to think that I am a pretty good classroom teacher but I live in fear that I will become a 60 year old disillusioned bundle of misery like some are today because what you joined as a vocation became a trap then a burden then an ordeal. Avoiding that is worth striking about for all our sakes. In the meantime, I confess I am doing everything I can to try to find another line of work (that is the point where self interest cuts in). As for the timing, as i said earlier there is no good time. I honestly don't feel that today was particularly any worse than any other day, except possibly the last day before the Christmas holidays (when I would gladly be on strike annually even if they doubled our salaries!)
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Post by GresleyRam©®™ on Apr 24, 2008 20:46:01 GMT -1
I think they should all sit down and enjoy some cake.
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Post by PASTIE on Apr 24, 2008 20:47:51 GMT -1
I'm afraid that I would be amazed if there are not more strikes. I am also no economist, but the evidence presented before us by our Union claims that there is no evidence that public sector wage increases affect inflation. I just do not know enough to know whether that is true or not. Again, returning to my original point, despite the hours I do I know that this is replicated by many. I know that we are well provided for in terms of holidays (whilst I would claim that there are few jobs where they are so desperately required by the time they come around!) and for where I live I am well paid. However, the issue is not about people like me but for people like yourself about to leave University with the possibility of entering teaching. With a decline in standards we cannot expect the best applicants and when the current situation is that 50% of new teachers leave the profession again within the first three years then something is seriously wrong. The welfare of the students concerns me too - and allowing such a decline will affect them far more than it will affect "the economy" and in the long term the social and economic effects of weaker schools will be far reaching. I think you have hit the most important point on the head there, with regards to future generations and the future direction of the profession. It is something particularly true to teaching. I think pay is one aspect of this - but its never been great, its not much better now, if at all and this pay deal is neither here nor there in the long run of things. Big pay in city jobs will sway some people but the people who go into teaching are not the ones in there for the money, mostly. It has to be good enough to live well in the 21st century though, and be competitive - I guess that is the debate. Things like increased work pressure, strict guidelines and curriculumisation (if thats a word) hasn't helped attract the best people too though. I'm sure its still a very rewarding job but, for better or worse, its very oriented towards getting students through exams now. Absolutely. Most of us joined with ideals. Some of us retain them but thus far have been doing our best despite the constraints. The true strain on teachers is not the financial pressures but the gradual depletion of enthusiasm. Add a bad pay deal on top of not just curriculum reforms of the past but also the workforce reforms we are enduring and the little matters like the introduction of "cover supervisors" (ie untrained non-teachers) to take charge of lessons and there is a time bomb in this sector. Just wait til the current crop of 50-somethings hit retirement age...
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Post by PASTIE on Apr 24, 2008 20:48:32 GMT -1
I think they should all sit down and enjoy some cake. Shouldn't you be in a queue in Tescos?
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Post by GresleyRam©®™ on Apr 24, 2008 20:50:54 GMT -1
I think they should all sit down and enjoy some cake. Shouldn't you be in a queue in Tescos? There you are - my finest Money cake. ;D ;D
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Post by Pete the Wolf on Apr 24, 2008 20:54:43 GMT -1
First off, my sympathies go to the school pupils who've missed out on education and want to learn, particularly those who've got SATs, GCSEs (which will be both Y10+11 with the modules?), AS and A2s. I'm releived for my brother that his school was not affected.
One thing I've been confused about though. I don't know what it's like for teachers who've been in the job for years, but the financial benefits for those fresh out of training seem great. Lectures I've had have informed us of golden handshakes when you start out and student debts being wiped off after you've been in the job for two years. Of course, this may only be for science teachers.
However, that could leave the door open to sub-standard teachers or people who could be great teachers, but just don't want to be there. I haad one teacher who possibly could have been good, but he quit after a year at my school to take up a job in industry having had his loan paid off. With a 4-year course and so over £17k of debt coming my way next summer (with interest already building up according to summaries I've been sent!), a PGCE followed by a couple of years teaching woujld be the easy way out for me with regards to finance.
Before you get me wrong though, I've no desire to do teaching unless things change drastically in my mind. Would much rather be doing something I enjoy and would be vaguely good at and slowly pay my debts off than enter into a job job purely for finance and not do many if any favours to future pupils' progress.
However, for those teachers without the benefits that people such as coursemates and myself were to enjoy, I do feel that a pay rise below inflation is a disgrace, no matter how much or how little that salary may be. I can't say that I agree with strike action though. I know the aim's to be distruptive, but it is brought upon people who are getting caught in the crossfire. As TW pointed out, there was a strike by uni lecturers back in first year and it was irritating to hand in example sheets only to not get any feedback. That strike was only resolved days before the results for the whole year were due.
One final point before my conclusion. I've had two friends on my course who've applied for PGCEs. Both of them were successful but were forced to decline their respective offers for different reasons. One of them chose to after the person who would have been her tutor informed her that she was not allowed any creativity; she'd teach via his methods and that was that. How could she accept that offer?
Okay, I'm not sure quite where I've been going with this post, but time to wrap it up methinks. I've every sympathy for teachers who are effectively having their pay cut each year with pay rises below inflation. However, I don't agree with the strike as many more pupils are being caught in the crossfire between teachers and the government and one hell of a wretched time.
One thing though. If there's a teacher shortage despite the benefits now being offered (which can allow more sub-standard teachers to come in), that shows the rate of people leaving the profession is greater than those coming in. To me, that suggests there's somethign rotten inside the whole profession that puts people off. If the government doesn't address that, then I can only see things getting worse.
I confess I've not followed this closely and I could well have spouted off a load of tripe, but there's my thoughts. Back to my MOSFETs and MESFETs!
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Post by miz on Apr 24, 2008 21:00:14 GMT -1
They only work a few hours a day anyway. bloody teachers - get back to work you lazy gits.
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Post by CmonYouSpurs on Apr 24, 2008 21:04:33 GMT -1
ok on one hand if i want to take my son off for one day for a summer holiday, (he would have missed the first day back), i get threatened with having my son thrown out of school and the local authorites informed, and then on the 4th day back from a 2 week Easter break which no other worker gets you all go on strike and my sons education dosen't seem so important anymore my son is only 6 btw which makes it all the more ridiculous of the schools stance. so i'm a bit torn on this issue after all the stress i went through last summer. Sry Pastie, just a parents view
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Post by Neko Bazu on Apr 24, 2008 21:11:56 GMT -1
I know the aim's to be distruptive, but it is brought upon people who are getting caught in the crossfire. Sadly, that's the case with most strikes - in this instance, though, I have more sympathy for the students than the 'victims' of other strikes. London Underground comes to a halt; bus or cycle to work, for instance. The students don't have that option, though. Yes, they can revise on their own - but having been in several classes where we had to revise without a teacher present, I can safely say they were useless, because you inevitably had prats messing about and making noise, throwing balls of paper round and all that, and it does get very distracting. Further to that, if you need to ask the teacher for clarification on a point, you're stuck. In your case, Pastie, fine, the kids can make do - but I know that at this point in my GCSE year, there were lots of pupils in desperate need of help with their revision, to the point where the teachers had to get the top pupils in their classes to help out. I don't think it's fair to deny those that want/need the help right now, of all times. As I said, I do have sympathy for the teachers; you get a crap deal in this country, especially when compared to the rest of Europe (fancy working for €40k with huge housing subsidies and respectful students? Just have to learn German!). Given that you're the ones steering the future leaders of this country, you should be better looked after. The thing is, by striking, that's exactly what's not being done, right when they need it.
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Post by Pete the Wolf on Apr 24, 2008 21:13:45 GMT -1
Ok, one thing which came into my mind. The first and middle schools in my home village were recently moved. land with the old schools was sold off and new buildings have been put up. The first school was closed today due to the strike. I thought there was some irony in that a school that was only opened recently was promptly closed again!
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Post by PASTIE on Apr 24, 2008 21:22:58 GMT -1
First off, my sympathies go to the school pupils who've missed out on education and want to learn, particularly those who've got SATs, GCSEs (which will be both Y10+11 with the modules?), AS and A2s. I'm releived for my brother that his school was not affected. One thing I've been confused about though. I don't know what it's like for teachers who've been in the job for years, but the financial benefits for those fresh out of training seem great. Lectures I've had have informed us of golden handshakes when you start out and student debts being wiped off after you've been in the job for two years. Of course, this may only be for science teachers. However, that could leave the door open to sub-standard teachers or people who could be great teachers, but just don't want to be there. I haad one teacher who possibly could have been good, but he quit after a year at my school to take up a job in industry having had his loan paid off. With a 4-year course and so over £17k of debt coming my way next summer (with interest already building up according to summaries I've been sent!), a PGCE followed by a couple of years teaching woujld be the easy way out for me with regards to finance. Before you get me wrong though, I've no desire to do teaching unless things change drastically in my mind. Would much rather be doing something I enjoy and would be vaguely good at and slowly pay my debts off than enter into a job job purely for finance and not do many if any favours to future pupils' progress. However, for those teachers without the benefits that people such as coursemates and myself were to enjoy, I do feel that a pay rise below inflation is a disgrace, no matter how much or how little that salary may be. I can't say that I agree with strike action though. I know the aim's to be distruptive, but it is brought upon people who are getting caught in the crossfire. As TW pointed out, there was a strike by uni lecturers back in first year and it was irritating to hand in example sheets only to not get any feedback. That strike was only resolved days before the results for the whole year were due. One final point before my conclusion. I've had two friends on my course who've applied for PGCEs. Both of them were successful but were forced to decline their respective offers for different reasons. One of them chose to after the person who would have been her tutor informed her that she was not allowed any creativity; she'd teach via his methods and that was that. How could she accept that offer? Okay, I'm not sure quite where I've been going with this post, but time to wrap it up methinks. I've every sympathy for teachers who are effectively having their pay cut each year with pay rises below inflation. However, I don't agree with the strike as many more pupils are being caught in the crossfire between teachers and the government and one hell of a wretched time. One thing though. If there's a teacher shortage despite the benefits now being offered (which can allow more sub-standard teachers to come in), that shows the rate of people leaving the profession is greater than those coming in. To me, that suggests there's somethign rotten inside the whole profession that puts people off. If the government doesn't address that, then I can only see things getting worse. I confess I've not followed this closely and I could well have spouted off a load of tripe, but there's my thoughts. Back to my MOSFETs and MESFETs! Not tripe at all - an interesting illustration of what I've been going on about. I believe that the situation for PGCEs now (irrespective of the subject area) is that the fees are paid and a payment of £6000 for that year is made (it is very difficult for trainees to hold down any other work, such are the demands of the course). I think certain subjects which are shortage subjects also offer paid incentives to recruit people and I would imagine that Science is one. The logic of weathering it for two years and then getting out once the loan is reduced would therefore make sense. It is most certainly not the case that this is true of all subjects. I woudl also like to reinforce that I didn't want to strike either. I made it clear to everybody I could that I thought that the strike was the wrong way forward at this (but not any) stage. In the event I felt that whatever my own opinions I should stay loyal to colleagues who were striking and to the Union of which I am a member (and there are times when I hold the NUT in a very low regard). Sadly I was one of only a very few teachers in my school who ended up striking - ironically there were others who wanted to strike but stayed in work as was so poorly supported in my school. I could not go in with a clear conscience whilst others went on strike and therefore came out. However, the rally I attended was excellent and whilst I'm still not convinced of the strike in the first instance I am convinced that the arguments are right (I always have been sure of this) and I am at least now part persuaded of the legitimacy of today. I'm expecting a bit of a backlash at work, but I do feel secure that I have acted morally and ethically throughout (God knows there was enough soul searching). One thing I guarantee though is that if a general strike by all public sector unions is called I will be supporting it unequivocally.
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Post by PASTIE on Apr 24, 2008 21:23:33 GMT -1
They only work a few hours a day anyway. bloody teachers - get back to work you lazy gits. *brushed aside with disdain*
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Post by PASTIE on Apr 24, 2008 21:27:43 GMT -1
ok on one hand if i want to take my son off for one day for a summer holiday, (he would have missed the first day back), i get threatened with having my son thrown out of school and the local authorites informed, and then on the 4th day back from a 2 week Easter break which no other worker gets you all go on strike and my sons education dosen't seem so important anymore my son is only 6 btw which makes it all the more ridiculous of the schools stance. so i'm a bit torn on this issue after all the stress i went through last summer. Sry Pastie, just a parents view Sorry mate, but I shall confound you by being on your side with this one too. It isn't teachers who say that your son has to be in school, it is the local authorities and the government. We are now told that if our attendance levels fall below a critical threshold (I think it is 90% but don't quote me) then this can trigger an instant inspection and potentially special measures for a school. These spell stress and disaster for schools. As a result most schools have been set attendance targets as have LEAs and many withdrew things like granted holiday permission. This doesn't come from any teacher that I know of. The idea that a six year old gains more from a day in school following the literacy hour and the numeracy hour and their 5% time allocations of Religion and Citizenship etc etc etc is utter bollocks and I can't think of a teacher anywhere who wouldn't be as frustrated as you.
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Post by PASTIE on Apr 24, 2008 21:32:25 GMT -1
I know the aim's to be distruptive, but it is brought upon people who are getting caught in the crossfire. Sadly, that's the case with most strikes - in this instance, though, I have more sympathy for the students than the 'victims' of other strikes. London Underground comes to a halt; bus or cycle to work, for instance. The students don't have that option, though. Yes, they can revise on their own - but having been in several classes where we had to revise without a teacher present, I can safely say they were useless, because you inevitably had prats messing about and making noise, throwing balls of paper round and all that, and it does get very distracting. Further to that, if you need to ask the teacher for clarification on a point, you're stuck. In your case, Pastie, fine, the kids can make do - but I know that at this point in my GCSE year, there were lots of pupils in desperate need of help with their revision, to the point where the teachers had to get the top pupils in their classes to help out. I don't think it's fair to deny those that want/need the help right now, of all times. As I said, I do have sympathy for the teachers; you get a crap deal in this country, especially when compared to the rest of Europe (fancy working for €40k with huge housing subsidies and respectful students? Just have to learn German!). Given that you're the ones steering the future leaders of this country, you should be better looked after. The thing is, by striking, that's exactly what's not being done, right when they need it. Again, i have nothing other than sympathy and a personal reminder that I opposed this strike. However, when the ballot paper comes to ask if I think we should be striking in league with other more significant public sector workers I will vote to strike without hesitation. It is the nature of the beast that we have to think of the longer term and the greater good but nobody takes any pleasure in it. For what it is worth, I was in the first year of my GCSEs when the last teachers strikes happened and I honestly don't think it did too much harm and they were more protracted than these. I should also wait a few days and see just what lengths your teachers go to in order to help you to catch up... We're suckers for doing that. I know I shall already be seeing some of my A level class after school tomorrow...
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Post by CmonYouSpurs on Apr 25, 2008 7:35:28 GMT -1
ok on one hand if i want to take my son off for one day for a summer holiday, (he would have missed the first day back), i get threatened with having my son thrown out of school and the local authorites informed, and then on the 4th day back from a 2 week Easter break which no other worker gets you all go on strike and my sons education dosen't seem so important anymore my son is only 6 btw which makes it all the more ridiculous of the schools stance. so i'm a bit torn on this issue after all the stress i went through last summer. Sry Pastie, just a parents view Sorry mate, but I shall confound you by being on your side with this one too. It isn't teachers who say that your son has to be in school, it is the local authorities and the government. We are now told that if our attendance levels fall below a critical threshold (I think it is 90% but don't quote me) then this can trigger an instant inspection and potentially special measures for a school. These spell stress and disaster for schools. As a result most schools have been set attendance targets as have LEAs and many withdrew things like granted holiday permission. This doesn't come from any teacher that I know of. The idea that a six year old gains more from a day in school following the literacy hour and the numeracy hour and their 5% time allocations of Religion and Citizenship etc etc etc is utter bollocks and I can't think of a teacher anywhere who wouldn't be as frustrated as you. no need to be sorry mate, its nice to hear a teacher with a bit of common sense and understanding of the situation. Last summer NO common sense was shown and the school acted like it was some fascist state, I mean look at the damage it would have done throwing my son out of school at that age just as he was settling down after making new friends. I see what your saying that its the local authorities who make the rules, but the schools could show a bit of leeway in ceretain circumstances when looking at the facts, not everything is black and white.
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Post by jh1980 on Apr 25, 2008 7:43:03 GMT -1
You know the bizarre thing? The more this becomes evident and the greater the threat of a Tory government the more likely I become to vote Labour just to avoid it. Talk about stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. What a sorry state of affairs... I agree absolutely on this point... as to the rest of course I support your right to strike for a REASONABLE pay deal - which is indeed something that cannot be found anywhere within the public sector this year it seems. Erm, I feel I should say more but I cannot in honesty be bothered! 2% - No Thanks!
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Post by HURLOCK on Apr 25, 2008 7:53:03 GMT -1
Both my parents are retired teachers and when they entered the profession it was a lot different, I am the first generation on my fathers side not to go into this metier. I admire anyone who takes on this role, but when entering the profession you do know that the pay is not great unless you become a head or a deputy. That is a sad fact with regards to majority of public sector workers.
What I found bad yesterday was various unions slagging each other off, and even a teacher on the BBC news saying the strikers are out of order and are just plain greedy!
I do think that the current government, has invested well in teachers - but this has to go further as these people are our future.
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Post by PASTIE on Apr 26, 2008 9:25:30 GMT -1
Sorry mate, but I shall confound you by being on your side with this one too. It isn't teachers who say that your son has to be in school, it is the local authorities and the government. We are now told that if our attendance levels fall below a critical threshold (I think it is 90% but don't quote me) then this can trigger an instant inspection and potentially special measures for a school. These spell stress and disaster for schools. As a result most schools have been set attendance targets as have LEAs and many withdrew things like granted holiday permission. This doesn't come from any teacher that I know of. The idea that a six year old gains more from a day in school following the literacy hour and the numeracy hour and their 5% time allocations of Religion and Citizenship etc etc etc is utter bollocks and I can't think of a teacher anywhere who wouldn't be as frustrated as you. no need to be sorry mate, its nice to hear a teacher with a bit of common sense and understanding of the situation. Last summer NO common sense was shown and the school acted like it was some fascist state, I mean look at the damage it would have done throwing my son out of school at that age just as he was settling down after making new friends. I see what your saying that its the local authorities who make the rules, but the schools could show a bit of leeway in ceretain circumstances when looking at the facts, not everything is black and white. I can't speak for everywhere, but I think that if the school was to show any leeway then they could be breaking the law... The only solution is to not tell them and call in sick. Crazy isn't it?
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Post by El Morto La Hoja! on Apr 26, 2008 9:26:47 GMT -1
.... lazy teachers...
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